Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Discuss New Grimoires and Techniques outlined in books like NAP , NIP , Frater Malak etc..

Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby ADRAEL » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:03 pm

The hoodoo system in the voodoo sorcery grimoire is similar and much easier to follow.
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby sylvanus » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:26 pm

http://fraterbarrabbas.blogspot.com/2011/04/remembering-michael-bertiaux.html

Damn.. I knew he was a dirty old man. And absolutely HILARIOUS about Bill Schnoebelen being involved...

At one point I was curious and wrote to the OTOA for an application, and received back what I'm fairly certain was some kind of magickal attack. When I finally got my computer working again (it later totally failed and I had to replace) I read the application and it sounded like a total joke. Then I read more of the VGW and I realized just what an intense, dark yet hilarious joke is contained within that document. My copy hides from me for months at a time.. it seems to be averse to actually just sitting in a bookshelf with other more reputable tomes.

I forget where I found this:
"Part 1: Voudoo Energies

Pages 31-34: "Lesson Nine: How the Hoodoo Man Keeps His Nature High". The chapter dealing with the "magickal cream", which appears to be semen. Bertiaux celebrates the act of men having sex with other men in "secret" places in a lesson that would make Sotos proud (Bertiaux also traces this type of sexual activity to Atlantean times, but over the course of the VGW he traces almost everything that interests him back to Atlantis, so this is no surprise).

Pages 38-42: Bertiaux discusses the "Points-Chauds" and time travel via the astral spiderweb in a lesson that obviously inspired the time travel stuff in "The Invisibles". Very fascinating reading.

Pages 43-46: stuff on Baron Zaraguin and the brotherhood of the were-tarantula sorcerors, plus a questionaire with such priceless questions as "Is this call to become a were-tarantula unmistakable?"

Pages 54-58: Information on various loa families, including the insect loa (of interest to Morrison fans).

Pages 75-81: Lots of trippy attributions, plus a brief segment on the Good UFO/Bad UFO experience, which will be of interest again to fans of "The Invisibles".

Pages 82-85: Fascinating paper dealing with "Angelic Gematria" and the "Simplified Enochian Computer".

Pages 188-191: "Vudu-Research Readings: The Metaphysics of Meat". This lesson appeared in Stephen Sennitt's "Infernal Texts: Nox and Liber Koth", in the "Nameless Sodality" segment. I have no idea what Bertiaux is going on about here but it's still pretty cool.

Part 2: Gnostic Energies

Pages 227-230: Bertiaux's thoughts on lattices, Crowley, plus excerpts from "The Book of the Meon" (mentioned in Kenneth Grant's "Hecate's Fountain").

Pages 231-232: Bertiaux's Word-Association Test (uses terms from the Cthulhu Mythos and Thelema primarily... see link at end of this post for more info).

Pages 233-235: more "Book of the Meon" stuff, plus an exercise involving writing one's own personal bible/holy books.

Pages 255-256: a small essay on the topic of Choronzon.

Pages 257-259: Perhaps one of my favorite papers in the VGW. "The Magickal Techniques of Computer Programming". For more info, see my link below.

Pages 265-268: Bertiaux instructs the reader on how to create a Gnostic Universe. Followed by a paper on Gnostic Day-Dreaming that I found very useful, back in the day.

Pages 283-285: Essay on the Zothyrian Empire and "Cybernetic Hinduism" (Cybernetic is one of Bertiaux's favorite word, along with anything ending in "ology" or "tronics").

Pages 285-286: Essay on "Esoteric Electrical Engineering" (EEE), dealing with how Bertiaux connects his students via conducters to the "Cosmic Computer" via the "Aditi-entry circuit" or some such esoterica.

Pages 300-307: Essays dealing with Yuggoth and teh Yuggoth Ray.

Pages 346-351: two interesting papers with evocative titles: "The Null Spaces of To-Gai Initiation Physics" followed by "The Application of Yuggothian Matrices to the To-Gai Null Spaces".

Pages 352-357: Bertiaux relates the Stanzas of Dzyan to the Necronomicon. Or something like that.

Pages 358-360: Essay called "Synchronistic Robotics: Design of the Theory". Mentioned by Bertiaux as being perhaps one of the most difficult papers (and he ain't joking).

Pages 364-367: A "Deep Ones" working.

Part Three: Elemental Sorcery

Pages 375-380: More info on The Zothyrians/Z-Empire.

Pages 394-396: Bertiaux's comments on energy alphas and his thoughts on building a new race.

Pages 397-408: The Oerg-8 papers. ALL RIGHT! I fucking love the Oerg-8 papers. Have to be read to be believed. At this point the VGW goes straight into science-fiction territory as Bertiaux juxtaposes his lessons with some "prose" dealing with a citizen of the future named Oerg-8, where we see that computers and servo-mechanisms now control society by perverted Reichian techniques and that humans are used primarily to produce orgone energy to power these machines. Includes the classic scene where Oerg-8 is jerked off by a mechanical hand. It's hard for me to describe these papers as they have to be read to be believed, but this was where I got my money's worth.

Pages 448-450: Essay on "Plutonian Contact Work". I write more about this in the link below.

Pages 464-472: Essays on the art of Hiroyuki Fukuda, a Japanese artist that Bertiaux seems to really enjoy. I can't find any information on this Fukuda anywhere, though two of his paintings are pictured in Kenneth Grant's book "The Ninth Arch". This is the paper where Bertiaux mentions the "void of the Manichean Baudelaire". I love that phrase.

Pages 492-504: Papers dealing with very dark magical powers. A very creepy segment in which at one point Bertiaux tells the reader about how he wishes to destroy "you", followed by a short story in which "you" meet him at a bar and he takes "you" to his apartment, where the two of you shower and he then strangles you while summoning werewolf powers.

Part 4: Elemental Theogony

Pages 511-516: Bertiaux's thoughts on the Gnostic mythology, Ialdabaoth, archons, and so forth. Bertiaux links the Book of Revelations as symbolic of his own battle against the forces of evil as his alter-ego, Michael Aquarius. I guess he's trying to say that he's Jesus Christ.

Pages 608-613: Concluding papers which gives one much to think about, especially the paper "Chorozon Club Course of Magickal Instruction Lesson 1". These papers are followed by a truly bizarre glossary.

Well, those are just some of the VGW's highlights, off the top of my head. Of course, there's bound to be a lot of other stuff that might interest others, especially if you're into stuff like ojas, kalas, tattwas, IFA, Shinto, philosophy, and so on. My interest in the occult is mainly the Lovecraftian/Kenneth Grant axis, along with the qabalah, so the portions of the VGW that dealt with that material I found most interesting of all. But it really does have something for everyone, hell, there are even portions dealing with Christianity for those of the religious bent."
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby Raz76 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:01 am

To be truthful, I had to get up the courage to begin working this system. After reading it the 1st time, I realized I had some biases.
I see 3 main areas that cause contention in the Western occultist: Magickal Paradigms, Sexuality&Society, and Spirit Possession
I can see where so many people who are involved with evocative ritual/ceremonial magic would have difficultly accepting much of VGW's techniques as possessing any substantial magical effect. Much of evocative ritual utilizes an entity by following a sequence of steps. Lucky Hoodoo magic follows a different paradigm. While ritual invocation is sometimes used, much of the interactions are an ongoing exchange of psycho sexual energies with the Hoodoo spirits in exchange for their magical interventions. It is so informal, often superficially appearing like one of those wanna-be candle rituals(those internet rituals for noobs that have no definitive magical result due to one' inept magical skill), that I can understand why so many ritualists doubt it's authenticity or reliability as a magical technique. Also, the magician is offering to "serve" the Hoodoo spirits, as opposed to the perception of authority in grimoire evocation. Offering to serve just seems all wrong. I don't think we are ruling or serving in either system. We are making exchanges. Both paths have their merits.
I think it would be helpful to point out that very often, using the Hoodoo spirits is much like a magician having many different familiars that can be directed with subtle communications. They help in both great and small activities. Some people would worry -how do the spirits benefit? Attention and the presence of sexual energies.
The sexual energies can initially be disconcerting to people from a culture that traditionally suppresses sex. Our society believes that heterosexuals only exchange sexual energy with the opposite sex. This, I believe, is an elementary misunderstanding of sexual energies. Humans attract and connect with others on so many unacknowledged levels. For example, much of fame or celebrity worship is often an adoration of an individual's sexual energy. Jealousy is often aroused when you see your partner exchanging sexual vibes or energy of attraction with a stranger, even though they are not technically doing anything wrong.
These Hoodoo spirits are eager for any and all interaction with humanity. This is easily exploited for benefit by knowledge of how to "feed" the spirits your intentions and desires. The 'simple-looking' candle rituals, prayers, and intention-embedded astral & thought forms are some of the simple techniques described. Controlling other people with Hoodoo spirits can be done by feeding the spirits magick squares loaded with sexual energy bound to that person. You don't have to blow your boss for that raise. But imagining say, a threesome with him involved, and then creating a magical square is a technique for controlling your boss through the Lucky Hoodoo spirits. The sexual imagination is the key to dominating a person-mostly bcs these spirits specialize and resonate in love and sex.
For those people who cringe at these ideas, I will note that : Successful magick requires the suspension of disbelief, the temporary acceptance of an alternate reality, and adopting paradigms that may be contrary to your normal or generally accepted values or nature. For the sake of performing a successful ritual, I am willing to use my imagination in ways that I would not under every day circumstances. This is just exercising a high degree of uninhibited control of my thoughts and emotions in a magical way for my benefit. I had to come to terms with working magically with sexual energy; In my internal worlds and imagination cultivating a level of impersonal detachment as an asexual being.

There is also the notion of possession. In the Western Mystery traditions, 'spirit possession' is a bad word. We are warned to invoke only angels of light, certain godforms, or impersonal qualities/energies of balanced planetary or elemental nature. Often Spiritism is suspiciously regarded. It required 1st hand observations and experience to change my opinion. As with every approach to enhanced spiritual or magical living, there varying degrees of potential hazards. I think that the dangers of one system are no worse than those of another. I also believe our surrounding 'layers' are porous, extending much farther than we imagine, and entities come and go(to these extended layers) depending on harmonic resonance. The word "possessed" is used very loosely here, and does not correspond to the Catholic Church's form of demonic possession(where the person is displaced by entity or entities). Not At All. I see it like inviting them into the room with me.
Lucky Hoodoo system invites certain groups of spirits inside yourself. It is a tradition that asserts that many of people's conditions such as luck or charisma are largely contingent of the kind of spirits one is possessed by(I often think of them(the spirits) as being associated with, surrounding, or being psychically linked to a person-as this makes the most sense to me). VGW has us expel the unknown and unlucky spirits and invites in the lucky Hoodoo spirits(that are both Spirits from the Land under the Sea and also the Dead) to replace.

I think this VGW has a ton of magickal knowledge, innovative techniques, and is completely original in the world of occult literature. The only addition that I believe needs to be made is when working with the Lucky Hoodoo, general dismissal of spirits or burning Voodoo/Hoodoo incenses needs to be done after all magickal activities. Bertiaux fails on that point. Following the instructions precisely, some activities caused me to become elementally imbalanced with too much earth, sluggish, cloudy-minded and sleepy. I improvised by dismissing then banishing after any form of invocation or related meditation. Its all good now. VGW techniques are great for when the lunar tide opposes my evocative rituals/operations. Smooth sailing.......
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby Raz76 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:27 am

VGW puts you in touch with a powerful magical current of Esoteric Voudon. If this were a workbook from Thelema, people would be going nuts for it. It has all the info and details a person approaching Voudon Gnosis would want- fully initiating a person into the little publicized magical current.

With some investigation, you will find that these are not the ramblings of an old pervert(see previous posts in this thread) or the self-important creation of fanciful words, but the dedicated and carefully recorded research of an experimental lodge into some far out and advanced occult concepts that most people never consider. This order has created a hybrid of Western ceremonial magic with Voodoo & Hoodoo rituals, using Gnostic trance and other elements.
The VGW should be followed up by reading Voudon Gnosis by David Beth.

Links:
Temple Ordo Templi Orientis Antiqua & La Couleuvre Noire link: http://otoa-lcn.org/index.php
Record of some Workings: http://www.mindspring.com/~hellfire/bishop/voodoo.htm
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby sylvanus » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:29 pm

I know someone in the LCN and more power to them. And I have no problem with homosexuality (i'm gay), spirit possession (done that too.. and when I was younger used to pay my servitors by making them a body and letting them astrally bone me.. so don't think I'm some sort of conservative here..), or his magickal paradigms for the most part. Although quite a few of the latter are quite wacky. Were-tarantulas?

I think the problem people have with this book is that it claims to somehow be Vodoun. Which even if he got some of this from Haiti and his lineage isn't bs (there seems to be something there) it regardless has little to do with the Vodou anyone else in Haiti practices nowadays. It has far more to do with this strange Gnostic bishops lineage trip and elaborated with his own bizarre ideas. His conception of what "points chauds" are is absolute madness, although I know of people in his order who I respect doing productive work with them.. they are certainly not pwen chod and Vodounists on the interwebs have no end of scorn for the man and this book for this reason. Even if what he says about his mentor is correct whatever kind of Vodou he was trained in was either VERY odd (he was a high class french speaker and mainly involved in Masonry, etc) or had been changed by Bertiaux out of laziness or for his own reasons, or both.

Posted by Houngan Matt in another forum, quotes, "Adam [...] both a doctoral student at Harvard Divinity School working in African Diasporic Traditions and Haitian Vodou specifically, as well as an asogwe initiate... the man knows what he's speaking about and has both the degrees and initiations to back it up."

I have to offer a dissenting view, insofar as I must question the criteria by which you evaluate the system as "worthwhile." Something can be powerful and yet morally repugnant. And morally repugnant it is. Michael Bertiaux's Vodoun Gnostic Workbook presents a vision of Haiti that is infantilizing, colonialist, and racist. Bertiaux writes of Vodou as something that must be lifted out of the hands of Haitians, who do not and cannot understand its complexities. Bertiaux, by introducing a purposely esotericizing language, seeks to "restore" to the control of (white) magi a Vodou that he proposes has Atlantean origins. This has precise historical parallels in the way that some Europeans, upon first viewing the Ile-Ife bronzes, that they had discovered the lost civilization of Atlantis because surely Africans could not have produced such sophisticated art. Having thus expunged from Vodou its most irreducibly Haitian--i.e. black--elements, Bertiaux then reconstructs it as a libidinal space for the performance of lurid sex rituals. This version of "Vodoun" recycles racist stereotypes of hypersexed black bodies and surely draws on H.P. Lovecraft's depictions of hypersexual, ultraviolent "black voodoo cults." This cannot be defended by recourse to arguments of religious freedom or laissez-faire liberalism."


& Here are some things written about him by Kenaz Filan, whose work you can evaluate on its own but I think I have to agree with him here:

I know enough about the Secret Societies of Haiti to know that some of the words which Bertiaux, Beth, etc. toss around as synonyms describe different - and frequently mutually hostile - societies. "Zobop" is not "Sect Rouge" is not "Bizango" is not "Vingblingding" is not "Sanpwel" etc. The fact that these groups are often conflated in OTOA/LCN work raises a red flag for me - as does Bertiaux's conflation of Haitian Vodou (Voudon) and African-American "Lucky Hoodoo." I do have some knowledge of Martinism, since my Mama Kanzo is a Martinist and since I've read a fair bit of Martinist literature in both English and French. I stand by my original statement that I find little Martinism in Bertiaux's work.

All this being said, I am not an initiate in any Haitian secret society, nor am I an initiated Martinist. So it could well be that I have missed the parts which describe naked homosexual Guede oil wrestling or Afro-Atlantean time travel techniques. If this is indeed the case, my apologies to you, Messrs. Bertiaux, Beth and Willis and the OTOA/LCN.

Regarding Rigaud, take a look at his Secrets of Vodou, particularly the part where he describes the various spirits. You'll see among his list "Erzulie La Belle Venus:" Rigaud encountered this lwa at the home of Mambo Edeline's grandfather. And I have no doubt that Bertiaux was heavily influenced by Rigaud's work. (I also provided a link to another possible source in my original post: if you read French, you should definitely check out Her-Ma-Ra-El's book).

As I said before, I think Bertiaux's work is an interesting piece of contemporary Surrealism and one which has had a great influence on many contemporary magical practitioners. Like many writers before him, I believe Bertiaux threw in a creation mythos to give his ideas more historical heft. (Would anyone have taken Gurdjieff seriously if he skipped the whole Meetings With Remarkable Men schtick and said "I came up with this stuff while I was selling carpets in some obscure Armenian market?") But I think the evidence for the OTOA/LCN's Haitian lineage is shaky to non-existent, creation myths notwithstanding."


So... you know, Gnostic Vodoun is fine on its own and perhaps quite a powerful magick system in the right hands. I think the problem comes with buying the myths about it and how represents itself as Vodou, as detailed above.
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby Raz76 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:22 am

Although quite a few of the latter are quite wacky. Were-tarantulas?

I think the problem people have with this book is that it claims to somehow be Vodoun. Which even if he got some of this from Haiti and his lineage isn't bs (there seems to be something there) it regardless has little to do with the Vodou anyone else in Haiti practices nowadays. It has far more to do with this strange Gnostic bishops lineage trip and elaborated with his own bizarre ideas. His conception of what "points chauds" are is absolute madness, although I know of people in his order who I respect doing productive work with them.. they are certainly not pwen chod and Vodounists on the interwebs have no end of scorn for the man and this book for this reason. Even if what he says about his mentor is correct whatever kind of Vodou he was trained in was either VERY odd (he was a high class french speaker and mainly involved in Masonry, etc) or had been changed by Bertiaux out of laziness or for his own reasons, or both.

I hear ya. I largely agree with your observations...this is an odd grimoire. It stands alone(as many ppl have said). I think it's cross application of Voodoo,Hoodoo , Ceremonial Magick, and Gnostic Esotericism offends the current classifications of systems. It certainly is not traditional anything. It never claims to be, but as you point out, people react as though he has. His only claim was that his Hatian mentor who later in more recent time(90's, I think) was expelled or fled the country to Chicago, was from a genuine lineage of both Hatian and French magical systems that had intertwined for a hundred or so years. Also, The Points Chauds is brilliant! genius and madness are the same coin. ;) It is similar to the Tantric Yogin practices of siddhanas associated with chakras. Very interesting and powerful stuff!

Here is the link for the record of their workings:
http://www.mindspring.com/~hellfire/bishop/voodoo.htm
This record of their workings shows that they call down and are ridden by the Famille Legba Nibbho. The ritual is classic Hatian Voodoo which is then followed by a voluntary participation in the Points Chauds.
I agree he applies some whacky sounding terms to things, but I think he's justified in having to assign some language to the activities. E.A.Koetting and Basil Crouch both describe the same spider magician/tarantula sorcerer astral forms. It is not an original concept. It actually is a little frightening to me. Loius Martinie describes biinding the operator and calling in the astral spiders/tarantulas to feed on his etheric body. When they have had their fill, they drop off and die and become an astral/etheric vehicle for the operator to time travel or visit other realms(like traveling the ToL) upon an astral spiderweb built up around the magician(linked-to during initiation). This is the consistent theme among these people(Koetting, Martinie, Bertiaux, Crouch, Cult of Marassa, Esoteric Voudon)
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby Raz76 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:51 am

sylvanus wrote:
Posted by Houngan Matt in another forum, quotes, "Adam [...] both a doctoral student at Harvard Divinity School working in African Diasporic Traditions and Haitian Vodou specifically, as well as an asogwe initiate... the man knows what he's speaking about and has both the degrees and initiations to back it up."

I have to offer a dissenting view, insofar as I must question the criteria by which you evaluate the system as "worthwhile." Something can be powerful and yet morally repugnant. And morally repugnant it is. Michael Bertiaux's Vodoun Gnostic Workbook presents a vision of Haiti that is infantilizing, colonialist, and racist. Bertiaux writes of Vodou as something that must be lifted out of the hands of Haitians, who do not and cannot understand its complexities. Bertiaux, by introducing a purposely esotericizing language, seeks to "restore" to the control of (white) magi a Vodou that he proposes has Atlantean origins. This has precise historical parallels in the way that some Europeans, upon first viewing the Ile-Ife bronzes, that they had discovered the lost civilization of Atlantis because surely Africans could not have produced such sophisticated art. Having thus expunged from Vodou its most irreducibly Haitian--i.e. black--elements, Bertiaux then reconstructs it as a libidinal space for the performance of lurid sex rituals. This version of "Vodoun" recycles racist stereotypes of hypersexed black bodies and surely draws on H.P. Lovecraft's depictions of hypersexual, ultraviolent "black voodoo cults." This cannot be defended by recourse to arguments of religious freedom or laissez-faire liberalism."


& Here are some things written about him by Kenaz Filan, whose work you can evaluate on its own but I think I have to agree with him here:

I know enough about the Secret Societies of Haiti to know that some of the words which Bertiaux, Beth, etc. toss around as synonyms describe different - and frequently mutually hostile - societies. "Zobop" is not "Sect Rouge" is not "Bizango" is not "Vingblingding" is not "Sanpwel" etc. The fact that these groups are often conflated in OTOA/LCN work raises a red flag for me - as does Bertiaux's conflation of Haitian Vodou (Voudon) and African-American "Lucky Hoodoo." I do have some knowledge of Martinism, since my Mama Kanzo is a Martinist and since I've read a fair bit of Martinist literature in both English and French. I stand by my original statement that I find little Martinism in Bertiaux's work.

All this being said, I am not an initiate in any Haitian secret society, nor am I an initiated Martinist. So it could well be that I have missed the parts which describe naked homosexual Guede oil wrestling or Afro-Atlantean time travel techniques. If this is indeed the case, my apologies to you, Messrs. Bertiaux, Beth and Willis and the OTOA/LCN.

Regarding Rigaud, take a look at his Secrets of Vodou, particularly the part where he describes the various spirits. You'll see among his list "Erzulie La Belle Venus:" Rigaud encountered this lwa at the home of Mambo Edeline's grandfather. And I have no doubt that Bertiaux was heavily influenced by Rigaud's work. (I also provided a link to another possible source in my original post: if you read French, you should definitely check out Her-Ma-Ra-El's book).

As I said before, I think Bertiaux's work is an interesting piece of contemporary Surrealism and one which has had a great influence on many contemporary magical practitioners. Like many writers before him, I believe Bertiaux threw in a creation mythos to give his ideas more historical heft. (Would anyone have taken Gurdjieff seriously if he skipped the whole Meetings With Remarkable Men schtick and said "I came up with this stuff while I was selling carpets in some obscure Armenian market?") But I think the evidence for the OTOA/LCN's Haitian lineage is shaky to non-existent, creation myths notwithstanding."


So... you know, Gnostic Vodoun is fine on its own and perhaps quite a powerful magick system in the right hands. I think the problem comes with buying the myths about it and how represents itself as Vodou, as detailed above.


I should add I do think Bertiaux is a bit eccentric and fantastic with many of his words, opinions and conclusions. He is not the final authority on anything. But I don't judge him any more harshly than the rest of the authors we contend with in occult literature. I take everything with a grain of salt. But I think these judgements do not evaluate Bertiaux's work as much as they do his eccentricities. The methods of the OTOA are productive along the lines of interest in utilizing Voudon entities as contacts for spiritual development.
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby sylvanus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:38 am

I guess my question is whether one can be said to be connecting with "Vodoun entities" just because you use their names.
Or without certain procedures something else takes their place.
It is a question, but I claim no authority.

And fyi the pwen chod in actual Vodou practice are something quite different afaik.
Last edited by sylvanus on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby sylvanus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:53 am

Raz76 wrote:E.A.Koetting and Basil Crouch both describe the same spider magician/tarantula sorcerer astral forms. It is not an original concept.


You don't think they just got it from him?
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Re: Voudoun Gnostic Workbook

Postby Raz76 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:04 am

sylvanus wrote:
Raz76 wrote:E.A.Koetting and Basil Crouch both describe the same spider magician/tarantula sorcerer astral forms. It is not an original concept.


You don't think they just got it from him?

What you suggest is ridiculous. That everyone from Louis Martinie and the Cult of Marassa, a over a decade of Bate Cabal group publishing their work, Koetting and his predecessors, and Crouch all copied an idea and perpetuated a lie. LOL.

Vovin wrote in one of his posts that he dreamed of a huge spider over top of him the night he began working with the Kingdom of Flames grimoire by Koetting. This is repeatable evidence by anyone who wishes to work with these author's spiritual contacts.

I guess my question is whether one can be said to be connecting with "Vodoun entities" just because you use their names.
Or without certain procedures something else takes their place.
It is a question, but I claim no authority.

And fyi the pwen chod in actual Vodou practice are something quite different afaik.


Did u read the page I linked with the ritual? I don't think you did. It was records of the Hellfire Club's early work-and included initiates of Hatian Voodoo. This statement you made could be said about absolutely any spirit you yourself didn't witness. But if you read the ritual working records, you will see that Voudon spirits have discernible behaviors that we can identify when they ride someone. After calling them with song, veve, offerings and by name- a priest performs a Voodoo invocation-what more do you want? They performed a 'proper' invocation.(-Follow the previous link to verify) If you didn't read it you may not have known. Its not some impossible feat to invoke these spirits. Why would you doubt or dislike that they are have been extraordinarily successful in working magickally with the Guedes? The OTOA & La Couleuvre Noire is hardcore magickal practice. I don't understand your persistence in slandering or being contradictory. I am supporting my statements from my earlier post on this thread. What are you trying to accomplish?
And fyi the pwen chod in actual Vodou practice are something quite different afaik.
I don't know what you have said here. My comments about the Points Chauds was describing how Bertiaux, the OTOA, David Beth, and the Esoteric Voudon/Gnostic Voudon members use it. I wasn't aware of it's existence in any other system(but I never did say anything about it's origins). All this can be verified by OTOA's website : http://otoa-lcn.org/index.php
David Beth recently put out 'Esoteric Voudon" and builds further on the VGW. His book is for advanced working with the Gnostic Voudon current.
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